Learning Can’t Wait · Episode 119
Chris Aviles + Andrew Abramson: Esports, Gamification in Education, Teamwork, After School Activities
- Chris Aviles, Esports expert
- Andrew Abramson, A passionate young esports competitor
Hosted by Hayley Spira-Bauer, Chief Academic Officer at Fullmind
Listen now
Chris Aviles + Andrew Abramson: Esports, Gamification in Education, Teamwork, After School Activities
Episode summary
Chris Aviles, product evangelist at Game Plan and president of Garden State Esports, joins eighth-grade competitive gamer Andrew Abramson to explain what scholastic esports is and why it matters. Chris describes building a nonprofit league of roughly 400 New Jersey schools modeled on traditional after-school sports, with practices, weight room sessions, and a diet-sleep-exercise focus. Over half of participants had never joined a school activity, and attendance improves. Andrew describes his training routine and how his parents learned the language of games. Chris closes with a low-cost playbook for schools.
Key takeaways
- Scholastic esports works when modeled on existing sports: practices, matches, and team norms
- More than half of league participants had never done any other school activity
- Parents valued that 82% of participants stopped gaming with strangers online
- Diet, sleep, and exercise are built into practice, with no sodas or energy drinks
- Schools can start with one console; curriculum is fundable through Title I, II, and IV
About this episode
Esports isn’t just about playing video games—it’s about teamwork, leadership, resilience, and real-world skills that can shape a student’s future. In this episode of Learning Can’t Wait, host Hayley Spira-Bauer sits down with esports expert Chris Aviles, founder of Garden State Esports, and Andrew Abramson, a passionate young esports competitor, to explore the transformative impact of gaming in education.
Chris shares how esports programs are giving students a sense of belonging, teaching valuable life skills, and opening doors to college and career opportunities. Andrew offers a firsthand perspective on what it’s like to compete, navigate challenges like in-game communication, and use esports as a tool for personal growth.
Whether you're a school leader, educator, or parent, this episode will change the way you see gaming and its role in student success. Tune in to learn how schools can implement esports programs and why this growing field is a game-changer for education!
Episode notes
On a crisp fall afternoon in New Jersey, a small computer lab hums with energy. Five students in matching jerseys lean toward their screens, fingers dancing over keyboards. At the center is 17-year-old Andrew Abramson, usually reserved and soft-spoken, now issuing rapid-fire commands to his teammates. The room erupts as their Rocket League match ends in victory. For Abramson, a passionate young esports competitor, this isn't just playing video games – it's the moment he found his place in school through programs supported by innovative educational technology platforms rethinking how students learn. "I used to be the quiet kid," Abramson admits with a grin, "but when I'm playing with my team, I'm calling shots and communicating constantly. I found my voice through esports."
Abramson's transformation is part of a broader story unfolding in schools across the country. Esports – organized, competitive video gaming – is emerging as more than an after-school pastime. It has become a bona fide school activity, with leagues, coaches, and even fans in the bleachers (or rather, on streaming platforms). In a recent episode of the Learning Can't Wait podcast, host Hayley Spira-Bauer put it plainly: "Esports isn't just about playing video games—it's about teamwork, leadership and civic skills development, resilience, and real-world skills that can shape a student's future". Spira-Bauer's conversation with Chris Aviles and Andrew Abramson painted a vivid picture of how competitive gaming is weaving itself into the educational fabric – and why it just might be the next big thing in learning.
Chris Aviles , a veteran teacher and esports evangelist, has witnessed this evolution from the front lines. As a STEM teacher at Monmouth Beach Middle School and founder of Garden State Esports (New Jersey’s scholastic esports organization), Aviles helped pioneer bringing esports into schools. He recalls how, a few years ago, pitching a video game club to school administrators raised eyebrows. Today, he leads a statewide network of school teams. “Schools are learning that esports are just as meaningful to students as traditional sports,” Aviles said, reflecting on the shift. In his view, a well-run esports program can offer all the benefits of a varsity sport, including brain-based engagement – and reach kids who’ve never felt seen in school before.
Abramson nods vigorously when Aviles says this. For him, traditional athletics held little appeal. He wasn’t out running laps or scoring baskets; he was at home on a PC, practicing Overwatch strategies. When his high school introduced an esports team, it was like opening a door he never knew existed. “For me, esports was the first time I felt connected to my school community,” Abramson says. He describes the pride of representing his school in tournaments, wearing a team jersey with the school mascot in digital form. “I never did student council or football – but suddenly my principal knew my name because of our Overwatch championship.” His smile widens as he recalls the day the morning announcements congratulated the esports team on a big win, echoing the kind of recognition usually reserved for the basketball squad.
That sense of recognition and belonging is a recurring theme as Spira-Bauer guides the conversation. In fact, Aviles points out, many of the students drawn to esports aren't the ones already thriving elsewhere. "Our esports athletes often don't participate in any other school activities," he notes. "We're really tapping into a marginalized community of kids and giving them a home-school connection, which we know leads to better learning outcomes". In other words, esports is doing what educators have long struggled to achieve – bringing the disengaged or isolated students into the fold. Like other innovative educational technology platforms, gaming leagues create unexpected pathways to student engagement. A teacher from California made a similar observation after launching a gaming league, saying it "instilled pride and confidence in a segment of the student population that was shy and introverted". These are kids who might have gone through school feeling invisible; through gaming, they become school leaders.
Leading and Learning in the Digital Arena
From the outside, a video game competition might look nothing like a football game. The "field" is virtual, the players communicate over headsets, and the spectators tune in via livestream. Yet, as Aviles and Abramson describe it, the parallels to traditional athletics are striking. Teamwork? Check. Leadership? Definitely. Perseverance after a tough loss? Every season, absolutely. "My kids learn about teamwork and strategy and have to maintain their grades to stay on the team, just like any other sport," Aviles explains. In his program, esports eligibility is a privilege that students must earn – reinforcing time management and responsibility along with essential civic skills development. When a practice or match is on, you show up, you cooperate, and you give it your all.
Spira-Bauer, who has seen many educational fads come and go, presses here: Can playing League of Legends or Super Smash Bros. really teach the same life lessons as varsity sports or the school band? Aviles is unequivocal. He’s seen students evolve from awkward loners into confident shot-callers. “We’ve had shy freshmen become team captains by senior year,” he says. In the game Overwatch, for example, success demands constant communication and defined roles – someone has to coordinate the offense, another calls out threats, another times a crucial support ability. A well-coached esports team, Aviles notes, functions much like a well-coached soccer team: everyone has a role and a mutual goal.
Abramson jumps in to share his own growth. As the captain of his high school’s Rocket League team, he discovered leadership abilities he didn’t know he had. “I learned more about how to lead a team in that game than I ever did doing a group project for class,” he laughs. Rocket League – essentially soccer with rocket-powered cars – might seem lighthearted, but at a competitive level it requires intense coordination. Abramson describes how he had to learn to give constructive feedback to teammates after a tough loss and how to strategize each player’s strengths. “If someone’s morale dropped, I took it on myself to lift the team up. It taught me a lot about motivating people.” These are not just gaming skills; they’re life skills, echoing what any coach might say about the value of sports.
There’s also the question of resilience. In esports tournaments, as in sports playoffs, you can be eliminated in a heartbeat. Spira-Bauer recalls asking the pair about handling defeat. Abramson responds that early on, his team struggled with frustration when matches didn’t go their way – tempers flared, or someone would shut down. Over time, they developed a rule: after any loss, each player must identify one thing they did well and one thing to improve next time. “It’s like reviewing game tape in sports,” he says. This reflective practice helped them rebound stronger and kept morale steady. Aviles adds that this kind of emotional resilience is one of the biggest hidden benefits of esports. Players learn to manage stress and maintain focus under pressure. A championship match in a packed auditorium (yes, those happen for high school esports) can be just as nerve-racking as a state basketball final. Surviving that gauntlet, win or lose, leaves students better equipped to handle other pressures in life and school.
The comparison to traditional athletics goes beyond metaphor – in some schools, esports is now a varsity sport. Aviles’ organization, Garden State Esports, works with over 180 school districts across New Jersey, helping them launch teams and compete in organized leagues. Several of those schools award varsity letters to esports players, and some even hold pep rallies before big matches. While skeptics might raise an eyebrow at cheerleaders rallying around PC gamers, Aviles likes to remind them that not so long ago, activities like marching band or chess club weren’t taken seriously either. “It’s all about perspective,” he says. “Once you see the dedication these kids have – the hours of practice, the teamwork, the way they light up when they win – it feels just as legitimate as any Friday night football game.”
Spira-Bauer, the host, observes that in many ways the culture around scholastic esports mirrors that of conventional sports. Students talk about their matches in the hallways the next day. There are friendly rivalries between schools (one middle school’s Mario Kart trash-talk might sound no different than a basketball rivalry). Parents are learning to tune in to livestreams to watch their kids compete, even if they don’t fully understand the games. “Truthfully, very few parents love video games or know anything about esports,” Aviles says, “but I have parents who tell me, ‘All my kid does is play games at home, and now you’ve given them something to be proud of with it.’” It’s a shift from seeing gaming as a waste of time to recognizing it as a vehicle for growth. In one anecdote, Aviles recounts a parent choking up in gratitude after an esports awards night, thanking the coaches for finally getting her son excited about school.
Engaging the Players Left on the Sidelines
One of the most powerful outcomes of bringing esports to schools is how it draws in students who often aren’t reached by other programs. Aviles refers to these students as the “lost tribe” – kids who didn’t join any clubs, who might leave school as soon as the bell rings, whose talents and interests largely went unnoticed by teachers. For them, an esports club can be transformative. “We had a student who rarely spoke in class, a really introverted kid,” Aviles recalls. “But he was phenomenal at Super Smash Bros. We got him on the esports team and suddenly he had classmates chanting his gamer tag in the cafeteria after he won a big match. It was life-changing for his confidence.”
Research is beginning to back up these anecdotes with data. Schools that integrate esports have reported better attendance and engagement from participating students. A game-based curriculum initiative in the Midwest found that the sense of belonging and camaraderie within esports teams led to improved attendance and overall school engagement. Similar to traditional sports, being part of “the team” gives students a reason to show up and try their best. Abramson can attest to that: “I used to dread coming to school. I’d get my work done and leave. But when we started the esports team, I actually wanted to stay after school. I didn’t want to miss practice.” His grades even saw a bump, a change he attributes to needing to remain academically eligible for competition. “Our coach – who was actually my math teacher – kept tabs on our grades. If I slipped, he’d bench me from a match. Believe me, that motivated me to do my homework!” he says, laughing.
Esports also opens the door for peer connections that might never have formed otherwise. Gaming tends to cut across grade levels and social circles. On Abramson’s team, a freshman might end up coordinating strategy with a senior, breaking down typical age barriers. “I became friends with people I’d never spoken to before, because we happened to main the same character in Overwatch,” he notes. The inclusivity can extend beyond just the stereotypical “gamer” kids too. Girls’ participation in high school esports is still in its early stages, but Aviles proudly mentions that a number of teams in his league are co-ed, and a few are even led by female captains. In a realm often criticized for its bro culture, school-based gaming clubs have a chance to set a different tone from the start by emphasizing respect and inclusion.
Spira-Bauer is keen to probe the social-emotional side of all this. She asks Aviles about screen time and the concern that gaming might isolate kids. Aviles responds with an insight that flips the narrative: “Three-quarters of our kids no longer play with strangers online,” he says, drawing from his program’s own surveys and experience. “They team up and play with their friends they met in esports”. In other words, the school esports program actually reduces isolation by bringing gamers together in person (or at least in a supervised school setting) and forging real friendships. The days of a student spending all evening alone in their room, anonymously gaming with unknown players, can give way to a more social experience – now they’re practicing with classmates for the next match, or discussing strategies in the library after school. “It turns out kids would rather play with people they know, people they see in class, than total strangers,” Aviles notes. The key was simply creating that opportunity in the first place.
One poignant story emerges in the discussion: Aviles mentions a special education initiative in a nearby district, where an enterprising tech director recognized the potential of esports for students on the autism spectrum. That district built what they called an “esports arena” on campus – essentially a dedicated, sensory-friendly gaming lab – specifically for their autistic students. The results were remarkable. Students who struggled in typical social settings were suddenly working in teams, communicating and bonding over games. The program helped these students connect with one another and learn new skills in a comfortable environment. It may have been one of the first of its kind, and it showcased how adaptable esports can be in engaging all learners. “One of gaming’s secret strengths is that it can meet kids where they are,” Aviles reflects. Whether a student is neurodivergent or simply hasn’t found their niche, a well-crafted gaming program can be a bridge to engagement.
Abramson chimes in here, recalling how one of his own teammates was on the autism spectrum. Initially, that student was hesitant to join team huddles or speak up. But he was an excellent strategist, the kind who sees patterns two steps ahead. Over time, through the structured, rules-based world of the game, he grew comfortable contributing ideas and even leading certain plays. “When we won regionals, he literally jumped out of his chair and high-fived me,” Abramson says. “His parents later told us the esports team was the first school group he’d ever been part of. It meant the world to them.” This underscores a powerful point: esports can engage students who often fall through the cracks in traditional school activities, giving them not just a pastime but a platform to shine.
Challenges and Pushback
For all its promise, integrating esports into education isn’t as simple as plugging in some computers and letting kids play. Spira-Bauer makes sure to ask about the less glamorous side: the structural and financial hurdles schools face in implementing these programs. Aviles, having built Garden State Esports from a handful of schools to nearly two hundred, knows this terrain intimately. The first challenge, he says, is infrastructure. “You can’t run a competitive gaming team on decade-old computers and a sketchy Wi-Fi network,” he points out. Many schools need upgrades – high-performance PCs or gaming consoles, reliable high-speed internet, possibly even dedicated space like a computer lab set up for gaming. All of that costs money. “When I started, there was zero budget,” Aviles recalls. In true educator fashion, he got creative: he repurposed computers from the school’s tech lab, sought donations of used gaming gear from the community, and had students fundraise through local tournaments. Slowly, the ragtag setup improved. Today, some well-funded districts are investing tens of thousands of dollars to build slick esports arenas complete with neon lights and school-branded jerseys, but Aviles insists that you don’t need all that to begin. “I always tell schools: start small, use what you have, prove the concept. The student interest will justify the investment once people see the impact.”
Another challenge is skepticism and stigma. Not everyone is immediately on board with the idea of video games in school. Spira-Bauer recounts hearing a veteran teacher ask, “Why should we encourage more screen time? Aren’t kids playing enough games at home?” This, Aviles acknowledges, is a common concern. His response is pragmatic: the kids are gaming anyway. “They’re going to do it whether we acknowledge it or not,” he says. “The question is, can we leverage that passion for something positive?” By bringing gaming into a structured, adult-supervised environment, schools can actually guide how students game, emphasize balance, and turn it into a learning experience. It’s similar to the way schools long ago decided to harness kids’ love of sports or music for educational gain. Moreover, Aviles points to research dispelling some of the worst fears about gaming. Contrary to the stereotype of the lethargic gamer, studies show that playing video games can improve critical thinking, pattern recognition, creativity, and problem-solving skills. And as the podcast discussion highlighted, esports in school encourages social gaming rather than solo play, alleviating concerns about isolation.
Convincing school administrators and parents often comes down to demonstrating outcomes. Aviles learned to speak the language of educators: attendance data, GPA improvements, social-emotional learning. “I had to show that esports was more than kids blowing off steam on a computer,” he says. He gathered stories and statistics – like the kid who stopped skipping school because he didn’t want to miss esports practice, or the survey data showing participants felt more connected to adults on campus. Over time, the successes became hard to ignore. District leaders started to see esports less as a novelty and more as an opportunity. In some cases, what began as a low-budget club evolved into an official class or a district-supported program. There are now high schools that offer electives in esports management or video game design, integrating the subject into the school day. “That’s the dream scenario,” Aviles says, eyes lighting up. “Where it’s not just an extracurricular, but part of the curriculum.” In those classes, students might analyze the physics of a racing game for science credit, or learn business concepts by managing their team’s marketing and sponsorships.
The financial aspect can still be a sticking point. Not every school can afford an esports program, and there’s a risk that wealthier districts will forge ahead while under-resourced schools are left behind. Aviles acknowledges this equity challenge and notes that some nonprofits (like his) and companies are stepping in to help. For instance, there are grant programs and corporate sponsorships emerging to provide hardware for school teams that can’t afford it. A few tech companies have donated gaming PCs to public schools as a community relations effort. “It reminds me of when we were trying to get computers into schools 20 years ago,” Spira-Bauer says. “At first only a few had them, but eventually it became standard.” The hope among esports advocates is that in a few years, a school without an esports or gaming club will be as rare as a school without any sports teams at all.
A more nuanced challenge is ensuring that esports programs remain inclusive and healthy. Aviles is candid about the importance of good coaching. “Just like a football team needs a good coach to actually teach teamwork and not just winning at all costs, an esports team needs an adult who can model good behavior,” he says. That means coaches who enforce sportsmanship (no trash-talking opponents in a toxic way, no rage-quitting games), who prioritize balance (reminding students to take eye breaks, to stay on top of schoolwork, and even to get physical exercise alongside gaming). Many schools pull coaches from existing staff – often a tech teacher or a librarian who happens to be game-savvy – and those adults sometimes need training in both the games and in coaching methods. There’s a growing ecosystem of support here, too: organizations offer toolkits for esports coaches, and seasoned programs like Aviles’s freely share codes of conduct and practice drills with newcomers.
One interesting structural hurdle Spira-Bauer brings up is the games themselves. Not all video games are created equal for school use. The conversation touches on how schools choose which games to compete in, balancing popularity with age-appropriateness and school values. The most common high school esports titles are Rocket League (rated E for Everyone), Super Smash Bros. (cartoon fighting), and League of Legends or Overwatch (team-based fantasy and sci-fi games). Notably absent are the more violent shooters like Call of Duty or Grand Theft Auto – most schools steer clear of games that simulate realistic gun violence or mature themes. Even Overwatch, a colorful sci-fi shooter, raised some concerns initially, Aviles notes, but educators were swayed by its emphasis on teamwork and the lack of gore (defeated characters simply respawn rather than die graphically). Aviles and his colleagues often frame it this way: Esports in school is about positive values, just like any sport. The choice of game is important, but what’s more important is how you play and what you learn from it.
From Game to Gain: Careers and Curriculum
As the podcast conversation turns toward the future, Spira-Bauer poses a big-picture question: What do these gaming programs mean for students’ long-term goals? After all, very few high school athletes go pro – is the same true for esports players, and does it matter? Aviles has thought a lot about this. “No one is joining a school esports league because they think it’s a guaranteed career as a pro gamer,” he says. The odds of becoming the next global esports superstar are slim, just as not every high school point guard makes it to the NBA. But, and this is crucial, career readiness in esports is about far more than playing the game itself. “Esports is one of the fastest-growing industries in the world,” Aviles notes, citing its booming global revenues and job opportunities. Indeed, worldwide esports revenue is projected to hit roughly $1.8 billion by 2025, and the global audience already exceeds half a billion viewers. With that growth comes a host of new career pathways that didn’t exist a decade ago.
“Think about all the roles around the games,” Aviles continues. “Shoutcasters (the play-by-play announcers for matches), event organizers, social media managers, game developers, graphic designers, team coaches, data analysts – the esports ecosystem is huge.” For students, participating in a school esports program can be an entry point to these fields. Spira-Bauer mentions NASEF (the North America Scholastic Esports Federation) which explicitly integrates career exploration into gaming clubs. They have students try out different “jobs” on the team: one might handle streaming the matches (learning video production and graphic design), another might be the team strategist (developing analytics skills), another could manage the club’s Instagram and Discord channels (marketing and community management). In this way, scholastic esports becomes a sandbox for STEM and digital media skills. “Scholastic esports is more than just gaming—it’s a pathway to future careers in STEM, marketing, event planning, and more,” as one industry group put it.
Abramson offers a personal anecdote: through his high school esports club, he got interested in coding. “We wanted a custom website to track our team stats and schedules, so I volunteered to make one,” he says. “I had never built a website before. But I learned, with help from a teacher, and ended up loving it.” Now in college, Abramson is considering a major in computer science – a path he directly attributes to skills picked up because of esports. Other teammates of his discovered passions for things like video editing (creating highlight reels of their games to share online) and even shoutcasting. “One of my friends realized he’s really good at casting – like, he has this sportscaster voice and can hype up a game. He’s now doing that for our college team and thinking about going into communications or broadcasting,” Abramson says proudly. In short, the experience opens eyes to new possibilities.
The pipeline to higher education is another aspect the trio discusses. As surprising as it may sound, colleges are now actively recruiting esports players – and offering scholarships. Over 200 U.S. colleges and universities have varsity esports teams that come with financial aid for talented gamers. “It’s crazy. I got offered a small scholarship just because I was high-ranked in League of Legends,” Abramson says, still astonished. He lists schools like the University of California-Irvine and Harrisburg University that have become powerhouses in collegiate esports, treating it with the same seriousness as traditional NCAA sports. Spira-Bauer notes that even the NCAA considered sanctioning esports, though for now it remains outside their purview, often managed by other collegiate leagues. The fact remains: gaming can help pay for college for some students. And for others, it can spark interest in going to college at all. Aviles has seen students improve their grades not only to stay eligible in high school, but because they realize a college scholarship – doing something they love – is on the line. “That’s an academic motivator we just didn’t have before,” he says.
Beyond college, the job market in gaming and tech awaits. The esports industry’s expansion has been creating positions in everything from game design to business management. By engaging in esports, students also become more comfortable with technology in general. Running a school esports event might involve setting up networks, troubleshooting software, coordinating online communications – all very practical tech skills. “I’ve had parents come thank me because their kid got interested in IT through our gaming club, and then went on to get a tech internship,” Aviles shares. It’s a domino effect: play a game, learn a skill, discover a career. For students who might not see themselves in a purely academic career path, esports can be a bridge into vocational and technical education tracks. Many esports programs partner with Career and Technical Education (CTE) departments. In fact, Aviles points out, the “CTE” aspect is a huge selling point to district administrators. Career readiness is a buzzword in education, and esports neatly aligns with it. “We keep talking about STEM jobs, and here is a perfect chance to get kids involved in STEM through something they're passionate about,” Aviles said, highlighting how gaming clubs can spark interest in computer science, engineering (like building custom PC rigs), or digital art and design.
Spira-Bauer raises the topic of gamification in learning – not just playing games, but bringing game-like elements into the classroom. It’s an adjacent trend that often comes up alongside esports. The idea is to make education more engaging by borrowing the mechanics that make games addictive: points, badges, leaderboards, levels, immediate feedback. Aviles is enthusiastic about gamification, with a caveat. “Throwing points at a lesson doesn’t automatically make it fun,” he warns. “It has to be meaningful.” He describes how he turned his science class into an ongoing game one year – students formed “guilds” instead of lab groups, earned experience points for completing assignments, and tackled optional “side quest” projects for bonus credit. The outcome? Participation shot up, and students who were normally indifferent started competing (academically) to top the leaderboard. It wasn’t just frivolous; it was tied to real learning objectives. Gamification, when done right, can trigger the same motivation kids feel to grind out levels in Minecraft or master a tough boss in Zelda, but applied to, say, mastering algebra. Spira-Bauer notes that many educational technology products are now exploring gamified learning modules. The success of esports in schools is partly an extension of that principle: make it fun, make it social, and the learning will follow.
The Future of Education Is in Play
As the podcast conversation winds down, Spira-Bauer asks her guests to imagine the future – what could the role of esports in education look like in five or ten years? Aviles takes a breath and envisions a landscape where esports is just another accepted part of school life, as unremarkable as the existence of a basketball team or a school play. He foresees a time when every school has some form of gaming program, tailored to its community. “Maybe it’s an after-school club, maybe it’s woven into classes, maybe both. But it’ll be normal,” he says. In this future, the initial hurdles have been overcome: funding secured, mindsets changed. Schools will share best practices the way coaches swap game tapes. There might even be regional or statewide championships broadcast on local TV, with student commentators at the helm.
Abramson adds his own hopeful vision. He imagines high school esports evolving not just in scale but in perception. “I want a world where a valedictorian can also say they were an esports team captain and everyone respects that,” he says. “Where being a gamer in school isn’t a niche thing – it’s just one of the many ways you can be involved.” Given the way youth culture is trending, this isn’t far-fetched. Gaming is thoroughly mainstream among today’s teens; it’s adults who often need catching up. The students already see esports stars as celebrities, discuss the latest game updates with fervor, and follow Twitch streams as closely as TV shows. Education, albeit slowly, is catching on to this reality.
The broader educational implications are profound. If schools embrace esports and game-based learning, classrooms might start to look different. Picture a history lesson where students reenact historical conflicts through a strategy game, or a literature class where they explore narrative through interactive storytelling games. The skills honed in esports – critical thinking, teamwork, digital literacy – dovetail with what modern employers seek. As one proponent put it, today’s players are tomorrow’s innovators. A student who learns to problem-solve in a heated esports match may one day apply the same skill to debugging a crucial piece of software or leading a remote engineering team.
There’s also a cultural message in all of this: a validation of students’ passions. For decades, there’s been a disconnect between the world of school and the world of youth popular culture. Embracing esports in education helps bridge that gap. It tells students that their interests, however unconventional, are valued and can be a source of growth. “The moment I felt my school cared about what I cared about, I started caring more about school,” Abramson says, summing up his journey. This alignment of student interest and educational mission is something educators have long chased. With gaming, it seems they’ve found a powerful conduit.
Of course, the road ahead isn’t without obstacles. The panel agrees that continued advocacy is needed to ensure esports programs are implemented thoughtfully and inclusively. There’s potential for misuse – like overemphasis on winning at the expense of learning, or commercial interests trying to exploit schools as markets for their games. Vigilance and a focus on student well-being must remain at the core. But if those guiding principles hold, the benefits appear to far outweigh the risks.
As the sun sets outside the studio window (or perhaps the glow of a computer screen – one can imagine either setting for this conversation), Spira-Bauer wraps up the session on a reflective note. She likens the current moment to the early days of school sports in the 1900s or the introduction of computers in the 1990s – a moment of opportunity and change. “It’s exciting, and a little daunting,” she says. “But listening to both of you, it’s clear that learning really can’t wait – it’s happening in game lobbies and virtual arenas right now, and education is wise to take notice.”
Aviles responds with the kind of optimistic determination that has clearly fueled his work: “We’re not just building esports teams. We’re building pathways for kids to succeed in the modern world.” In the background, one can almost hear the cheerful victory fanfare of a game well-played. The final takeaway is unmistakable: when done right, esports in schools is more than play – it’s preparation. It’s a new way to unlock students’ potential, one game at a time. And for students like Andrew Abramson, it’s made all the difference, turning school from a grind into a game worth mastering.
Full transcript
Transcript generated from the recording; minor errors may remain.
Hayley Spira-Bauer: Welcome to the Learning Can't Wait podcast of Fullmind. At Fullmind, our vision is to ensure every child has access to an exceptional education. Each episode, we will be joined by Pathfinders within and around the education space who are bringing about transformational change. On behalf of deserving students, I'm your host, Hayley Spira-Bauer. Welcome back everybody to the Learning Can't Wait podcast. I am so excited for this panel today. I know for a fact that I am going to learn a lot by interviewing these two incredible guests, and I'm confident that you will as well. Without further ado, let me please introduce to you Andrew Abramson. We have an eighth grader from New Jersey who is an esports enthusiast. Welcome Andrew.
Andrew Abramson: Hi,
Hayley Spira-Bauer: So glad to have you on the podcast today.
Andrew Abramson: So glad to be here.
Hayley Spira-Bauer: We also have Chris Aviles, the product Evangelist for Game Plan and the president of Garden State Esports. Welcome, Chris. Hi.
Chris Aviles: Thank you for having me.
Hayley Spira-Bauer: I think it's important. First of all, I'm so glad to have you both here. I think it's important to disclose that you both know each other, and I'm excited for the guests to hear on this episode how you two know each other. Does that sound good to both you?
Chris Aviles: Absolutely.
Hayley Spira-Bauer: Alright, amazing. Chris, I'm going to start with you. Can you tell our guests how did you come to be the professional and personal version of yourself?
Chris Aviles: Yeah. My story starts back when I started teaching in 2002, and what got me to where I am today is that I noticed that my connection with kids when it came to being a teacher was often in and around video games, whether it was using video games as a teacher or just talking to them about what they were playing. As somebody who grew up playing games as well as traditional sports, it was a great way for me to connect with kids. And so following that passion for gaming that I had and my students had, I first started gamifying my classroom and doing some other fun stuff. I actually taught my full English course as a high school English teacher using video games. But where I am today, no longer a classroom teacher, I left about six months ago, and that was to run the esports league. ([02:28](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2FqLWvgoCFrVdxCIZhiAvbDd4RA-fe0usvXayAZGnLD743fhegUd5sAuK67jtCT55mg37eAt4byPRnw3SAvvfNFRjooRc%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D148.83)): I started full-time during the pandemic as a way to help kids stay connected to each other in their school when everything else was canceled. I invited some other teachers who had video game clubs to participate in our pen and paper esports league, and I'm excited. I mean, almost six years later, the league has grown to be the largest in the country. We have almost half the schools in New Jersey in our league. And then as a top end, the program, I started a college league last year that now has 20 colleges in it as well. So for me, the intersection of education and gaming and esports is something I'm really passionate about, and that's actually how I met Evan's father. Evan father is another very talented educator, edtech evangelist, kind of like myself. And it just so happens that he has a son, this wonderful young man, Andrew, that I've gotten to know over the last couple of years who's as passionate about esports as I am. And so I'm excited to share the floor with him because he will lend the most important voice of this conversation, and that's to a student in 2024 and why we need to make the changes to our education system to meet the needs of these kids.
Hayley Spira-Bauer: Chris, so many good points in that introduction. Thank you so much for sharing both your story to esports and your connection to Andrew. Can you just give a literacy moment here for our guests who don't know what esports are? What are esports?
Chris Aviles: Yeah, so traditionally esports is competitive gaming where instead of playing on a soccer field, they meet on a virtual field and they compete, whether it's games like Rocket League games, like League of Legends or Overwatch. But specific to this conversation, esports is the newest afterschool sport that we have added to education probably since I think 2006 when lacrosse came around. And what it looks like is just like kids going after school, the football practice or wrestling practice like I did, there's some students who are now also going to esports practice and they work as a team. They develop teamwork, leadership, communication skills. They're part of something sense of belonging, connection, and they compete against other schools through Garden State Esports in New Jersey for a state championship.
Hayley Spira-Bauer: Incredible. Thank you for just giving us that literacy moment there. Folks who, like me when I met Evan two weeks ago, really had no idea that this existed. And I'll get into that in a little bit because I have this really unique perspective as being a teacher. I'm an operator of an edtech company now, but I'm also a mom of two boys who love video games. We'll touch on that a little bit later, but before we do, I'm so excited as you said, Chris, to give a platform to Andrew because Andrew represents student voice, which is hard to get on this podcast. Andrew, welcome again. Can you tell everybody how did you get started in esports and why do you pursue it competitively? Why do you compete in esports?
[05:00] **Andrew Abramson:** So I got started in esports back in 2020 during the pandemic when my dad introduced me to Rocket League, and I played that a little bit, but I found Fortnite, which I used to actually play competitively, and I would play the majority of the tournaments with my friends, with myself. And I pursued the esports because I like the enjoyment, what you get once you finish it and you can get rewards and everything. And it overall just brings people closer together. So yeah, I imagine
Hayley Spira-Bauer: During the pandemic when everybody was at home playing esports allowed you to connect with your peers. Is that a true statement, Andrew?
Andrew Abramson: Yeah, it is. It even brought us a lot closer.
Hayley Spira-Bauer: Andrew, one more question for you. Just tying this back a little bit to school, Chris mentioned in his introduction that he used video games as part of his English teaching curriculum. Do you have any cool teachers like Chris who also use video games in school during a school day?
Andrew Abramson: So in my school, we have a gaming club, which is after school, but some of the teachers, like last year, they use real world examples by finding it in video games. Like in history class, we were learning about different parts of history in the 17 hundreds. And the teacher, he found Assassin's Creed, and he actually showed us examples of him playing it and how it connected to the story that we were learning about.
Chris Aviles: Nice. I like it.
Hayley Spira-Bauer: It sounds so engaging. And Chris, I'm going to flip it back to you for a second.
Chris Aviles: Sure.
Hayley Spira-Bauer: At the end of the day, a motivated student is a student who I believe can learn because they're engaged, right? Or excuse me, an engaged student is a kid who's motivated. I kind of flipped that there.
Chris Aviles: Sure.
Hayley Spira-Bauer: Talk about what your classroom looked and felt like and sounded like when you started introducing video games into the curriculum.
Chris Aviles: And so this is maybe the biggest misunderstanding is my classroom looked very much like it did before. I brought in video games, good pedagogies, good pedagogy, right? Good teaching practices, good teaching practice. There were still do nows, there are still assessments, there are still exit tickets. There was still all the things that you would expect to see in a classroom. However, the medium, the vehicle for engagement was the game. And so I'll give you maybe the most clear concrete example that I could give is imagine in your English class you learn about how to write dialogue, you learn about setting, you learn about motif. All of that stuff can be done through books, which is fantastic. And a lot of times we did it. Nothing was ever only video games all the time always. But throughout the course, kids actually designed their own video game using Unreal Engine. ([09:03](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2Fqwfd5poMTkM9xrR9UQV42u6Am-2IC9kE2GuIj09QCZj8O_5f10sH4A6fxFykKt6S_RZZZYT0YJ2fonbjezj15xdTISc%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D543.18)): And if they were going to make a zombie style game, a horror game or something like that, well, what is the setting? What is the motif? How are you conveying that to me visually through the audio? So it is understanding that we could teach really anything that we want through a variety of different means. I mean, it's not uncommon in math class to see teachers referencing NBA averages and points. So whatever context you want to put the learning into, you're still going to be teaching 'em the same stuff. So my kids learned everything else that you would learn in a traditional English class. We've just leveled up, we'll say the way that we are teaching, the way that we're engaging kids and that for a lot of kids is gaming. You look at the stats, they're ridiculous, especially after the pandemic. More kids are gaming than ever before. ([10:01](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2FuwZAKTxKa_DKDcR_gcJV-PrXR823Umbu4GnvpOMXam7UvaXU8AJtQDaH9xhgx6yxjQUb5AktSaNpXSizp1q2kT1Iwyg%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D601.62)): So beyond bringing it into the classroom and using it as a teaching tool, it also presents a unique opportunity to build up a digital culture that undoes some of the things that we see in the news all the time. Because until we break the stigma of gaming and gamers and what better way than to put it with a trusted adult in a school setting where we can educate around it, that was kind of what the classroom looked like. It just was an English teacher and we were doing books, sometimes we were doing games, sometimes we did both.
[10:00] **Hayley Spira-Bauer:** Sounds like an incredible learning environment and really has fostered what I think you're now doing that you said you started building six years ago. Tell us all a little bit about what you are doing at Garden State Esports and how that connects to the in-school learning that you may not be in every single day of the week anymore, but has a tieback.
Chris Aviles: Yeah. So when we think about esports, and let's look at it from an afterschool perspective, I mean beyond the science being there, I feel like very few people would argue that afterschool extracurriculars, whether they're sports or clubs, they have educational value, especially when you connect a kid to their school, you connect a kid to their peers, they're more likely to show up, they're more likely to be involved, they're more likely to behave, they're more likely to make sure that they do what they need to do to be able to be involved in the things that they like after school. And so esports probably why we're getting such massive adoption in New Jersey is we have made this exactly like any other afterschool sport. So you go to practice at the same time, basketball is going to practice your matches, right? One day a week, start at three 30 at the same time the tennis match is starting. ([11:42](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2FmTCkby6GauYS8HgA4Fke7eiKzc_SBkzWtIIqqIYV7d2kV5gQf7WQa25sgv9i61y-b0y7iiBZW9ddyCZnS6fhIsric28%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D702.84)): So number one, to wrap your head around this, instead of competing on a wrestling mat like I did, kids like Andrew are competing in Fortnite or they're competing in Rocket League, and there's just as much strategy and value in it as any other sport. And so when we talk about social emotional learning, the social emotional benefits of esports are the exact same as traditional sports. Now, the exciting part isI have 12,000 kids in the league, Andrew, more than half of them have never done anything at their school, but eSports.So we're also re-engaging a kid that has really traditionally been left behind by school programming on top of where the superintendents are falling in love with our program. These kids are coming to school now. We know athletes.
Hayley Spira-Bauer: Chris, I literally was just going to say I want to see some, sorry to interrupt you, but I have done so many episodes on absenteeism. I literally interviewed former US Education secretary, Arne Duncan, spoke about absenteeism. I want to see those stats. That is so exciting.
Chris Aviles: You are in luck that we have probably four or five studies coming out with districts New Jersey, who have basically worked with us to show what a kid's attendance was like before esports, what it was like during esports. But then to your second part is how we're bringing learning during the day. Garden State Esports is a nonprofit. Everybody involved is still a full-time teacher. And we had no shortage of curriculum, whether it was classes that I had taught that used games, or we have teachers that used gaming, math and all kinds of cool stuff. So we offered that for a long time, free PDFs and stuff like that. But we were looking for a partner to really help us take the curriculum to the next level. And that's how I ran into Game Plan, right? Game plan is as unbelievable LMS. So think Google Classroom on steroids. ([13:35](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2FUoaPvkKo_i5HC0Q9R3672GEjQL8_k4zUmuve_b6GjUW6FXzIzQ3cCnTtO5J-_xGiuw1QkrYLWNgDx7IUOJLlFWkiyWM%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D815.47)): However, they also had curriculum in and around gaming and esports and video game design. And so when I reached out to them about potentially partnering and helping us platform our curriculum to get it to other teachers in New Jersey, it was just a perfect match. It was like talking to soulmates. And so Garden State Esports had become so big that I was likely going to have to leave teaching at some point. But with partnering a Game Plan, I now have basically the best job in the world where half the time I'm working on Garden State Esports and doing stuff in New Jersey. And then through Game Plan, we take esports and gaming, game-based learning, a lot of really exciting stuff in the AV tech communications cluster like broadcasting, production, streaming, interactive media, video game design. We get to deliver that internationally to hundreds of schools around the country. So my full-time job is teaching teachers how to use games to make kids better. So it really is a dream job.
Hayley Spira-Bauer: Andrew, quick, yes or no question. Do you want Chris's job one day?
Andrew Abramson: A hundred percent.
Hayley Spira-Bauer: I can only imagine. It sounds like a dream for a person like you who's so involved in esports as a youth to dream about what your path could be. But I want to go back to something Andrew that Chris just talked about, which is how the way that they've structured esports in New Jersey is to mirror other sports that kids are playing, like football and soccer. Can you tell us what's a typical day for Andrew Abramson a day that involves esports? I'm sure that's almost every day at this point, but what does it look like? When are you playing? What is your routine and training schedule look like?
[15:00] **Andrew Abramson:** So the game that I play with esports usually is Fortnite on competitive. So I usually play the tournaments around eight to 11:00 PM because that's when most of them are. Once I get home from school, I hop on Fortnite to practice for the tournament leaders and I play with some friends, try to work on my teamwork skills with them and just try to help us get stronger together so that we can crush our competition,
Chris Aviles: Crush our
Andrew Abramson: Competition.
Chris Aviles: Can I point something out real quick? Yes. So there is a big difference between what we do at Garden State Esports and what Andrew is doing. Andrew is what we call on the pathway to pro, right? Andrew's school is not a school that has adopted esports as part of the educational experience, so he doesn't have an opportunity to participate until he goes home at eight, nine o'clock at night. And so I always like to point out that talented kids like Andrew exist in every school, not just in New Jersey, but everywhere. And schools that refuse to accept that this is a thing that they need to be invested in are putting talented kids like Andrew in a really tough position. Again, I told you I started a college league. There's 42 colleges in universities in New Jersey, 36 of 'em have esports programs. Imagine a kid like Andrew who is going to go chase down a college scholarship and he doesn't have that same resume because his school doesn't have varsity level esports when he gets into high school. Versus if I took an unbelievable program in the state, let's talk, let's say like Bargate High School, a kid's resume who they're a four year varsity letter winner, captain of their varsity esports team and a garden state esports state champion where they defeated 80 other schools. You can imagine whose resume is going to be more appealing to colleges. ([17:27](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2FyDQ8iyQjHYmSpZLOQuWXFJVqAVqMIHA9rNkJEvRkntM_g9FqX4v89TGVZih-g4SKIq8Y2RtW4_RJEkj_F7mE9LzI6GQ%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D1047.68)): So what's amazing about Andrew is he is forging his own path because a path has not been forged with him through his school. And so it's one of those things is in a way, it's tough for a kid like Andrew to be up 8, 9, 10, 11 o'clock at night competing.
Hayley Spira-Bauer: Yeah, that's my question.
Chris Aviles: Where our actions at three 30, they're done by 4 35 o'clock and he's home to eat dinner and do his homework and get to bed at a reasonable time. ([17:56](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2FVR4LNIDjbhjYa1-FMV_v4dko4WswMI0iWDWWbrxkv3Pfy5klVNTEhRncwizDpjJmJZkhYNGLUB0UbuCECfmoSmt86yk%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D1076.85)): So that's one of the things that I stress is kids are going to do this anyway. They tell you that half the kids in the league, again, don't do anything at their school. They just go home and play video games. We're doing these kids a disservice by not providing these opportunities as part of their scholastic experience because they have just as much value as any other traditional sport. So when you hear the amazing thing Andrew is doing, I can't help but feel upset that his school is not put him in a position to reach his full potential. Andrew will tell you, a few years ago, Bugha 16 years old from Pennsylvania, won the Fortnite World Cup, took home 6 million as a 16-year-old.
Hayley Spira-Bauer: Oh my gosh.
Chris Aviles: So it's not unheard of for kids Andrew's age, sometimes younger, to be able to compete at a professional level. It's actually more common to go pro and then go to college than it is to actually go to college and then go pro.
Hayley Spira-Bauer: Wow. Yeah. Andrew, I had that exact question that Chris just raised, which was, so if you're playing from eight to 11, you come home, you eat dinner, you said you practice. Are you doing homework before that?
Andrew Abramson: Yeah, so usually I do my homework before, but if I have loads and loads of homework and I know that I have a really big tournament later, sometimes in between matches I'll do it, but I get most of it done before the tournament.
Hayley Spira-Bauer: I know this sounds maybe silly because I'm new to esports, but I think you also have a specific eating and drinking regimen that you have to really follow. Your dad was telling me a bit about this when I met him at EdTech week. Can you share with our listeners, when you're participating in a tournament, what do you have to do with your diet and your sleep habits to make sure that you maximize your performance?
Andrew Abramson: So your sleep habits, you want to make sure that you're not waking up so extremely early that you're so tired that you fall asleep before the tournaments and you won't be able to compete in them. So you want to wake up usually around pretty late in the morning just so that you have your sleep in, and then you can go perform at your highest level for diets. You want to make sure that you're eating healthy just so that you can think the way that you would be able to at your highest level and that you wouldn't just be in and out of the bathroom the entire tournament.
[20:00] **Hayley Spira-Bauer:** Right. Then you can't compete. And it's funny because the reason why I asked this question is, again, there's probably a lot of listeners that like me, are not as familiar. Their state doesn't have an opportunity to build out what Chris is building right now. And you might think like, oh, video games, they're just sitting at a desk. But it actually is a super physical task. You're using a ton of mental energy and capacity as Chris named to strategize. So if you don't eat properly, you lose the stamina to be successful. Does that sound right to you, Andrew?
Andrew Abramson: Yeah.
Hayley Spira-Bauer: Yeah. Chris, can you add onto that a little bit? Again, I want you to now think about me like the parent whose kids love video games,
Chris Aviles: Who
Hayley Spira-Bauer: May not be as enamored with the idea of my kids playing video games. Talk us through some of what you talk about with parents. I know you do this as part of your job to help folks like me understand the value. And side note, my five-year-old is dressing up as link for Halloween on 31st. My boys are Zelda obsessed. Yes. So talk us through this. For folks like me who are not gamers who do not compete in esports, I want you to just paint a picture if you could please.
Chris Aviles: And so obviously I can only speak to my organization. There's for profit companies out there and stuff like that who are more interested about monetizing off of kids in schools, right? Than they are doing the right thing. But as a nonprofit run by teachers, our bottom line is always the kids and students. And so another reason I think that we're having such success is I actually started to try to bring esports to my school since 2011, and it took seven years to finally get a yes. And every time I got shot down by a board of ed or by super by the principal for whatever reason, I would go back and I would write another unit about it for the curriculum that we had shared and eventually platformed on Game Plan. And to your point, that is a big part of, I think the misconception about esports. ([22:39](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2Fmpzz1iWjpb8jm3fB5TAHg5jUp8LH-zKu9itWWXXU1YGbAr0bHNjjJQUiZDvhjsnsChpF_X9acArUsG9QgZ7fr6kTdS0%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D1359.37)): To be a high level athlete like Andrew, you have to compete at a high level like any other sport. And it may be hard to believe, but both in the curriculum that we have and we use in our 300 plus schools diet, sleep and exercise is the performance triad that affects how you perform. It doesn't matter if it's esports, it doesn't matter if it's academics, it doesn't matter if it's traditional sports. Those three things have a big effect on your performance. And so what parents love about what we do is we talk about diet, sleep, and exercise. We work it into our practice programs. So we say things like no sodas, no monsters in our practices, water only. We talk about how you should be unplugging and disconnecting from your devices a couple hours before bed because the blue light messes with your ability to go to sleep. ([23:33](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2FHjzv_d3siqenOyPyhMNU1cNRi7bkWr6Bgka3-ngISxiuPJ_K5HUmgYLQ6GIGn95ugVpVecuQTxcVbyWyGKsmRAXFngA%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D1413.49)): You should be getting eight hours of sleep a day. We talk about exercise. So it's funny, a lot of people are surprised. Again, I've wrestled my entire life including coach varsity wrestling for almost 20 years in the same way that I take my wrestling, my wrestlers, obviously we exercise during practice, but then we go to the weight room. I do the same thing for my esports kids. We start every practice with stretching and mindfulness goal setting, what we're going to accomplish in this practice. A couple days a week, I take my kids to the weight room. And what was cool though is again, because they're in a safe place, they were more willing to go and learn when we started with body weight exercises. But then inevitably, I would've a bunch of kids who would actually realize they liked to lift weights and they would continue lifting, but they never felt comfortable. ([24:18](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2FxAa_W4yOiO8nSMnFxfC3Fnmfu5m-l_T6iXPYs-U0LD9yjCUCoRY-KDQGlwlwe0q8WVHh8yUMVrXqw8zrS3M9eVVtQ8I%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D1458.92)): They were always a little bit nervous. But now that they're part of a team and were doing it together, they're a lot more likely to give this kind of stuff a try. There's a huge diet, sleep and exercise component. There's a social component. We're dismantling toxicity and making sure racism, homophobia, misogyny or stomped out in our communities by making sure that we raise kids like Andrews to understand that that's not an acceptable way to act online even if nobody's watching, even if you're not going to get caught. I mean, really, Hayley, I think maybe the stat that'll blow your mind about the value of this when you think about diet, sleeping exercise and the social aspect and really trying to make kids the best that they could be. The statistic that our parents have fallen in love with is82% of our kids no longer game with strangers online.([25:09](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2FWnf3iKeJ4Zg-D62ia1S9iVXFliK_1aiRDv0p7R2wLsm4p_WCYd3-VuDguBCxWs4WS5Ln6WkYmT2rsRhWO6j_QYZj1kE%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D1509.59)): They only game with kids on their esports team or kids they've met through our community. And so when you talk about that sense of belonging, how it improves academics, it improves attendance. The fact that we are teaching our teachers to talk about diet, sleep, and exercise. We're talking to our teachers about how to keep kids safe online, how to navigate issues like discord and stuff like that. Even talk about performance, enhancing drugs and esports, like Adderall. These are all things that we address. We don't shy away from any of it because these kids know more about this culture and this world than parents. So we need to be that support for them to understand something as simple as the relationships that Andrew builds online. Sure. Andrew has friends that he's met through Fortnite that he's never met in real life. They're as real and meaningful as a relationship as any IRL friend that he has and have a hard time wrapping their head around that. It is funny, like Andrew's talking about is he started this when he's five, right? My kid still kicks and screams at five, but if he's an eighth grader and he says, oh, this is affecting me negatively. I should probably stop doing this as an eighth grader, where eighth grade is all about impulse control. ([26:24](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2FClha8u6clfYfLng0PPx8yUVSkk6QlDAVy-2p8jp2r6mMrIPZ4hoVJvD3mF5e12ev1MuQuY5X5gOuHe_-3UbOBTo_H40%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D1584.62)): Your dad won Andrew.
[25:00] **Hayley Spira-Bauer:** Totally.
Chris Aviles: I hope my son has that. And Hayley, so Andrew reminds me actually of, and I do it so often, I don't even realize that I do it. My biggest tip for you is transition time. As a parent, you can't turn around. And I'll be honest, my wife does it to me sometimes when I game and I get upset. She's like, oh, I need you to do this right now. I'm like, babe, I'm killing zombies. The zombies aren't going to wait. There's no pause. There's no save. So with my five-year-old, I do a ton of transition. Hey, we're going to play the game in 20 minutes, and as soon as we start playing, hey, we're going to play for half hour. Hey buddy, we're going to wrap it up in about 10 minutes. Hey, we're going to wrap it up in about five minutes. Hey buddy. This is the last thing that we're going to do. So if you want to save, you got to go save now. So the transition was a big thing is I found my kid's biggest explosions where I expected him to stop playing immediately.
Hayley Spira-Bauer: And that doesn't work
Chris Aviles: And it doesn't work.
Hayley Spira-Bauer: You know what else I'm hearing here that I feel like I can adapt that Andrew said, so I'm going to back us up. I asked the question, how do I get my kids to stop? My kids love open-ended video games. It's really hard for them to stop playing. Andrew, you said something really important too. So I'm big on transition. I'm an elementary educator. Got it. And Andrew said something, I think I need to learn the language of each game because Andrew just said like, oh, I have a checkpoint. If I say to my kid, Hey, [student], when's your next checkpoint? Get to the checkpoint and then stop instead of just some time. Because time doesn't mean anything when you're in an open-ended game necessarily. I like, maybe I just need to learn the language of whatever specific game like Luigi Mansion three has open-ended, like, oh, and get the next, I forget what it is, get the next ghost and then stop. If I can learn the language of the game and use it with him, then I'm speaking. You gave me a really good tip there, because I think I just want him to stop when it's time, but it's not time. He doesn't want to lose everything. Right?
Chris Aviles: Yeah. And I think that makes sense too, is when we do parent nights through Garden State Esports, that's a big thing that we get parents to understand. And most parents, for whatever reason, have not actually sat down and played games,
Hayley Spira-Bauer: Played the game,
Chris Aviles: Or watched games or watch their kid play. So one of the questions I get all the time at a parent night is, why will my kid endure verbal abuse instead of just leaving the game? And I'll quiz Andrew real quick, Andrew, if you're playing an esports game and you voluntarily leave a game too many times, what happens to you?
Andrew Abramson: You get banned.
Chris Aviles: You literally get banned from the game.
Andrew Abramson: What parents? And then you just can't play it for either certain amount of time or indefinitely, which has happened to me before.
Hayley Spira-Bauer: I mean, which also happens in regular sports. I was just at soccer practice last night and I overheard some kids, parents of older kids saying, oh, if you miss a certain number of games, they won't play you. They'll take you off the team. And I'm like, we have a wedding this week and my kids only eight, or they're going to kick 'em off the team. Same thing. It's very translatable.
Chris Aviles: But think about it this way. So if we're playing Overwatch or we're playing a game like Valorant or something like that, and a kid is being victim of verbal abuse from his teammates because the only people he can hear are people on his team. So it's his own team who's abusing him. He has three choices. Number one, leave the game. But Andrew just told you, if you leave the game voluntarily, you get a 15 minute timeout, then a 30 minute timeout, and then eventually a band from the entire season. Now the kid has to say, okay, I either need to endure this verbal abuse or I can leave, but if I leave, I can't play my favorite game potentially for three, four or five months. The other thing I could do is I can mute the person, but if it's a game that involves teamwork and I mute my team, I'm going to lose. ([30:21](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2Fsl78LID9kiJNP_dcV6wPQEX8o2PEumgat1iO4Dx2t4yBv8zK1zYWEHrQBmAtOb2B2E9ePorLZODWTte5lX05CDxKYes%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D1821.55)): And everybody knows, right? Andrew, losing sucks. So now it just took all the fun out of the game because I can't communicate because I muted my team so I don't have to listen to that person. So that's a big thing that parents don't understand is nobody wants to endure the verbal abuse, but it's either leave the game, potentially get a ban, mute the team lose because you can't communicate, or you sit there and take it and you communicate with the other four people on your team who aren't being terrible people. And then a lot of people are also surprised to hear that their kid goes back at the people yelling at them. But when you're enduring that abuse for so long and you have no choice but to sit there and listen to it, it's only natural At some point you lash out,
[30:00] **Andrew Abramson:** Right? Is that right? Yeah.
Chris Aviles: What were you going to say
Andrew Abramson: Back? We were talking about earlier with the understanding the language for the parents and how they should watch it to understand, my mom still to this day is just get off. You have to go upstairs. But my dad, he used to be like that. And then now he spoke to my mom after watching me because he was like, you have one minute. Get upstairs right now or else you're not going to play for the rest of the month or the week. And so I'm like, can I just finish this match or this checkpoint? And originally he didn't understand me, but then I sat him down to come watch and he ended up explaining it to my mom. And now they're like, alright, just finish whatever you're doing and then come upstairs before a certain time.
Chris Aviles: Yeah. Cool.
Andrew Abramson: Well,
Hayley Spira-Bauer: You helped educate your parents too. That's pretty awesome. Self-advocacy is another skill that you are learning through esports that is really valuable in life. And side note, because this is going to come out with the episode, it's the episode that we just recorded, but Evan did an episode on the podcast that I believe is being released last week. So by the time you're listening to this episode, Evan just did an episode and talked a little bit about how he's engaged in esports and his school and how important that has been for helping kids on the autism spectrum get engaged in an activity that otherwise they may not have had access to, which is also really awesome. Andrew, I have a question for you. Where is this going for you? What's your future in esports? I heard Chris mentioned pro. What does that mean to you as a kid who's involved in esports right now? What are your hopes and dreams?
Andrew Abramson: So some of my hopes and dreams, obviously, to win a bunch of money from it, maybe even make it a successful job. But some of my hopeful dreams are just to build the skills that I can use in video games and actually be able to use them in real life to then make me become more successful in real life.
Hayley Spira-Bauer: How cool is that from the mouth of kids, Andrew, what you're saying is so incredibly powerful. That's honestly, I think every teacher and parent's hope and dream for their kid is to say, I want to build skills in X that help me in my life. Your parents, your family must be so proud at Andrew.
Chris Aviles: They are. His father says such nice things about him all the time.
Hayley Spira-Bauer: Listen, that's why we're here today having this podcast is because Evan was bragging on you, Andrew, just talking about how accomplished you are and how proud he is of everything you're doing, the teamwork, the strategy, and how it's really shaped you as a kid. It's very cool to hear. Chris. I feel really grateful that you and Andrew are both here today and to talk about this. Can you talk about what you have as hopes and dreams for the esports community, maybe in New Jersey and beyond in the next five, 10 years, given how quickly this field is evolving?
Chris Aviles: Yeah. I mean, it's interesting listening to Andrew and thinking about my own coaching experiences. I've been very lucky that I have kids who have gone pro. I have a kid on the Cowboys. I have kids who played for the Red Sox and every step along the way, parents never told me, do not prepare my kid to play at that level. Do not work with them. Do not dream with them to compete at that level. But every single parent said, just please make sure he has a backup plan. And so when I hear Andrew talking about transferable skills, teamwork, leadership, if you go and look at the leaders of Fortune 500 companies, a lot of them are former high level athletes because they know what it takes to compete. They know what it takes to have team. They know what it takes to be a leader. ([35:32](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2FJXOkbGOb_ygrgYOlLXDRikd3xSmPSXEqHyvle6WgTrlC1r7UZjS7O4dxqd7ivyXzdOr21pEIH5a-jQMORk74XLYpDkc%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D2132.39)): And that's no different than what you're going to find in esports. A kid like Andrew, who in eighth grade is leading a team against, if he's playing trios 97 other kids and competing in Fortnite and communicating in real time, he has to pick himself up after losses and he celebrates his wins like every other sport. And so he's a kid who is going to be able to take those skills and he's going to be able to deploy them to anything that he does no matter where he goes. And so my dream isn't necessarily about esports. My dream is for kids like Andrew to be able to find a home in things that they're passionate about. And if he has the opportunity to go pro, fantastic. Let's make sure every avenue is open to him just like it is for every other athlete. If he doesn't make pro, let's make sure he ends up in a great college, hopefully in New Jersey. ([36:24](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2Fqr9zO8fv3JQ5Pa_9UBgZTf25n3AAdAHyXET5P50CUcNJfTFiM6dvwdYAiWJd1i6nnk1dj9aOX1uAXEnI26QQAf6MKv8%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D2184.81)): We don't want to lose any talent if after college pro's not the next step or sometimes before he finds himself in a job with a career that he's happy and he goes on to live a happy life. So the dream we have for our kids is not really different than any other kid, really. It's about getting people to be open-minded. When I say we have almost half the schools in Jersey, well that means half the schools either haven't heard of us or don't see value in this. And to me, that's a problem. My league Garden state esports, we have Fortnite. And the fact that a kid like Andrew is not competing in our league in the game that he specializes in, that's a real problem for me. So it's really helping people, and you probably hear it all the time, Hayley, and what people are really saying when they're like, oh, I don't get what they're saying is I can't imagine learning in a classroom that I did not grow up in. Right? Oh
[37:00] **Hayley Spira-Bauer:** Yeah.
Chris Aviles: And that's what we have to change.
Hayley Spira-Bauer: That's the ed reform movement in a nutshell, right?
Chris Aviles: Well, that was a make sense because I
Hayley Spira-Bauer: Didn't do that. Yep. That wasn't my education.
Chris Aviles: Listen, I had to sit there and I had to read books I hated and I had to do worksheets, and I was bored out of my mind. You know what? I want my kid to have to go suffer through that instead of saying like, oh, we want the next generation to be more engaged and more excited.
Hayley Spira-Bauer: Totally. And to make learning real for them and to make it meaningful.
Chris Aviles: Exactly. And that's my excitement with my opportunity to continue to work with Game Plan is this is a type of learning and a vehicle for engagement that is not only applicable after school. This works during the day. This works. We're doing stuff with YMCAs, boys and girls clubs. We're actually doing stuff with juvenile detention facilities because they want to get these kids to reengage and build a team and give them something positive in their life. So that way when they leave the system, they have something else to do besides getting, and that's really the dream is let's understand that it's 2024 if nothing else. These kids got cell phones in their pockets that, sorry, Andrew. They don't know how to be bored so you don't adopt and adapt and try to reach them where they are. And we say that all the time as teachers, oh, we got to reach 'em where they're, well, sometimes that means teaching dialogue through video games. Sometimes that means instead of doing public speaking where kids want to curl up a die when it comes to giving a speech in front of their class, you know what I do? My kids live stream to Twitch for an hour. That's their public speaking. Love it. And I'm sure you talk to kids like Andrew, Andrew, you'd rather live stream to Twitch dude, or would you rather do a speech in front of your class?
Andrew Abramson: I would rather live stream Twitch.
Chris Aviles: Same exact skills,
Andrew Abramson: Right?
Chris Aviles: Why not?
Hayley Spira-Bauer: I love this. I am feeling extremely inspired from this conversation, but I am going to get us to our final questions here because what I know to be true is that powerful storytelling like on a podcast and powerful engagement with audiences can leave a really big impression. So Andrew, I'm going to ask you your final question. What advice would you give a student who wants to get into esports?
Andrew Abramson: So some advice that I'd give a student if they want to get in it is that even if you lose a bunch of times that you should keep going because eventually you will get better and learn from it. I actually have gone through that where I have stopped playing games, but then reone back to them just because I'm not satisfied with just losing and giving up
[40:00] **Hayley Spira-Bauer:** A lesson on resilience. Andrew, I love it. That is a super powerful statement, and as you said earlier, you learned it in esports, but it's applicable to literally every part of life, and I'm grateful that that's the message you're sharing. Thank you for that candor, Andrew.
Andrew Abramson: You're welcome.
Hayley Spira-Bauer: Chris, a similar question for you, but really aimed towards, I'll actually pivot it to schools. What advice would you give schools who are interested, maybe not in New Jersey, in getting involved in esports programs and building them out? How would you tell them to get started?
Chris Aviles: Yeah, I mean, it's not as hard as people think it is, right? Number one, model it after every afterschool sport that you have when you practice, have practice, when you have games, have games. If you don't have schools to compete against, go ask them. Go find video game clubs to compete against, compete within your own school for a while When it comes to equipment, which people reach out and they say, oh, how do we start esports programs? And a lot of times they want to talk about the technology and the money they have to spend. And as always,technology is the last. It's what you do with it that matters.Technology is the tool. The game is the tool. So I always start with, well, is your learning goals of your school district, how are you going to use this to increase attendance and increase engagement? ([41:38](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2FXV4HisBYQsxSZD7cHH5YO2yLFkPQq4oBEAbvqsC6xJb-RXgDW3S8qRHdFFuGuIE-Xc2Qvc36pwzymM4hbCR5MCKVANE%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D2498.06)): And how are you going to use this to give kids a home that didn't have a home before? That doesn't have to cost a lot of money, right? A lot of schools in New Jersey get started for $0 because the teacher or the kids, they bring in their Nintendo Switch. So one Nintendo Switch, you've got kids playing smash, and guess what? Now you got an esports team. And from there, it's not a video game club. The competition is what builds a lot of these soft skills. So creating competition, seeking out competition, talking, connecting with other schools in your area who might want to engage with something like this. We started again during the pandemic went from two to four. It went at the end of year one, we had 32. At the end of year two, we had 125. At the end of year three, we had something like 190, and now we're almost at 400 schools, and it's all word of mouth. ([42:29](https://www.google.com/url?sa=E&q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rev.com%2Ftranscript-editor%2Fshared%2FZEzMg0EHCHMesMvU-O3wpya7CGQU8qPBiPANdrYya7QuE461Bn1eCyCaVcuMZjBQFzgxXnrmZ8TTy88Gvi5WGitZPWA%3FloadFrom%3DDocumentDeeplink%26ts%3D2549.9)): I never have spent a single dollar in marketing in my life. And so teachers have done so much with so little for so long that we could basically do anything with nothing. So you don't need any companies to do this for you. You can do this all of yourself or rely on the folks out there. Everything that we do at Garden State Esports is online for free. Game plan has it all set up so that you can bring this to your classroom in a way that fits within school budgets and is fundable through Title I, Title II, Title IV, because the impact that you're going to be making with it spans so many different segments. So a lot of times it's really just figuring out what are the learning goals for your school? What does Year zero look like? And then you just scale and you fly the plane, you build the plane while it flies.
Hayley Spira-Bauer: Awesome. I really appreciate that level of practicality, Chris, in your response, because a lot of school leaders, principals, superintendents, listen to this podcast and if they are feeling excited about everything they've heard here just as I am, you've given them the first step to get in the door on investing in a program like this, investing, whether it be time or other types of resources. So thank you.
Chris Aviles: Yeah. Happy to.
Hayley Spira-Bauer: Chris and Andrew, this has been so fun. The time has flown so quickly. Thank you so much, both of you, for coming on the podcast talking about esports and talking about your experience in really a field that is just rapidly evolving and growing.
Chris Aviles: Thank you for having us.
Hayley Spira-Bauer: Yep. Thank you for everybody who tuned in today. Thanks for listening to the Learning Can't Wait podcast. If you like what you heard, please rate, review and share this episode. Be the first to know when we have a new episode by subscribing wherever you listen to podcasts. If you'd like to be a guest on the show or have a suggestion for an episode, email us at podcast full Learning.