Dr. Peter Tragos + Beverly Leon: Civics Education, Social Media, Civil Discourse

Hayley Spira-Bauer: Welcome back, everybody to the Learning Can't Wait podcast. I am so eager to introduce today's guest for an important panel on the topic of civic education. This was a long time coming, getting these guests on and it worked out like the stars aligned. I want to introduce you to Dr. Peter Tragos, the assistant superintendent for curriculum and instruction from New Trier High School. Welcome Peter.

Dr. Peter Tragos: Thank you, Hayley. I'm so glad the stars aligned. We've talked about this and I'm honored to be on the podcast today with you and Beverly as well.

Hayley Spira-Bauer: So happy that you're here and you kind of give away our next guess, which is perfect segue. No, it's perfect. Beverly Leon, the founder and CEO of Local Civics. Welcome, Beverly.

Beverly Leon: Awesome. Thanks Hayley. Hey Peter, great to be connected and excited for this conversation today and it's definitely timely, it's

Hayley Spira-Bauer: Timing. We have 47 days until the next presidential election at the date of this recording, so a good time to talk about civics education. Before we dive all the way into that, I want to start us off by asking each of you how you came to be the personal and professional version of yourself. Beverly, I'll start with you.

Beverly Leon: Happy to share and every time I think about founding Local Civics, which I started over six years ago now thinking about my journey to there starts a lot earlier. So I often share with people my story starts on a soccer field. I grew up in a small red town in blue Massachusetts and my parents immigrated to the US before I was born and raised a family there. When I start to think about how did I start to have the questions about my life, who I am, who I am in community, where I can feel most connected and build that sense of belonging, I think back to rent them. And I think back to the sacrifices my parents made to bring me there and also create an amazing family that happened to have a lot of brothers. I grew up with five brothers and we were on the soccer field in the backyard every single day. And what I didn't realize when I was a kid just running around playing town soccer, joining local clubs, that sport would change my life. So it would open doors for me for university and school and also for leadership. And beyond that it would also open doors for me to see skills around coaching and working with other people in my community. So when I think about who I am today, the questions I have, the goals I have, how I think about what's important to me in community, I think about sport, but more so how those spaces of community and the players I grew up building with, learning with and pursuing our own goals as young people. That sense of self was really born out of soccer, born out of public spaces, born out of adults in my community and my parents driving us to all those practices, catching rides, and really just pouring into young people. And so without that, I think about how I would be living my life and those experiences. So that brought me to college. I studied history at Columbia. I then go on to play professional soccer. When I graduated high school, there wasn't a US Women's League to aspire to. And by the time I graduated college, that was a different story. And so all of these choices I've made in my journey have actually stemmed from just the opportunity to be a young person, play and explore. And I think about how that was facilitated by my parents, my brothers and everyone that just supported me along the way. So hopefully that gives you a little bit of insight into my journey just personally, but also professionally. I now think about youth development, I think about coaching, I think about all the experiences young people need to build that sense of agency and that drives a lot of our mission at Local Civics.

Hayley Spira-Bauer: Really that was a masterclass in a personal introduction. I feel like despite only having known you or met you for about 10 minutes total in our life, that I have such a clear window into why you do what you do and how you came to be. So I can't wait to dig in more. Thank you for that amazing introduction.

Beverly Leon: Well, thank you. I appreciate that. I'm still trying to figure it out. I still have some questions that are unanswered, but

Hayley Spira-Bauer: That's the, I at least know where they started. Enjoy your life though, right? Figuring out your path and learning and discovering more of who you are and who you can be. Alright, Peter, you're going to follow that one. I'm just kidding. That

Dr. Peter Tragos: Will be hard to follow. Beverly, thank you for sharing such a meaningful story just meeting here on this podcast. I also have a sense of who you are and what motivates you. So thanks for sharing that with all of us. I look forward to learning more in the conversation how I came to be. I think I'll start in the present here. My role at New Trier and really I would say have grown up as an educator here in my 27th year at New Trier, I've been fortunate to be surrounded by some amazing educators who themselves were mentors and colleagues who challenged and inspired me, supported me to experiment in my craft. Those of us who've been in classrooms know that it is a lifelong journey and probably never perfected. And that sense of humility that comes with doing something, be it a job, a career, a task, a profession that's never quite perfected is really inspiring. And that has been my experience at New Trier as both as a teacher, a leader, administrator, is being surrounded by good people and positive relationships. Beverly, you talked about the positive people in your lives and the importance of having those mentors were important to me. And then secondly, the students. I've had both as a teacher of 17 years, but also continue to work with students as well who inspire me to be better and do the work I do in this way because you can't help but work with young people and not be inspired for the future. The folks that the students we're seeing today, call them Gen Z, I'm filled with hope. These are young people who will take on the challenges I hope, fix the problems that we adults can't or won't. And it's happening now. So this is inspiring to make sure that we're doing the right things for student that just all comes with a level of humility to get better every single day. And it's what's been driving me.

Hayley Spira-Bauer: Well look at that. That too just gave me the chills. I mean, Peter, what a beautiful example of servant leadership and how you speak about the work you do and why you do it. I am beyond excited to hear what you both have to say about our big topic today. You've touched on it obviously in your introductions, but we're here to talk about civic education, why it's important, how we make it effective, how we measure the impact of that work. So I want to start off by asking why now more than ever is civic education? And am I even saying that correctly? Civic education? Why is it more important today than ever before? I'll start back with you, Peter, to hear what you have to say from your vantage point.

Dr. Peter Tragos: I think there's two reasons it's more important now than ever. First is we have bad models of civic engagement and civic education right now. And two, we're more isolated and socially disconnected probably than we ever have been before. Lemme talk a little bit about the first part of that. First is we have bad models of civic engagement and civil discourse. I would add to that. And politics has seemed to become bloodsport win or die trying. And that political polarization is at an all time high. Everything about politics today seems zero sum, I win. You lose and dislike and hate and distrust for the other side is growing and we have deeply distorted views of understandings of the other. So I think about whether that's left or right, Democrats, Republicans imagine almost twice as many of their political opponents as reality hold views as extreme. There's this perception gap. We assume so many things about the other side that frankly aren't true and instead of assessing whether they're actually true, it just feels true to people. So therefore it is true. And that disconnect is really I think, problematic. It creates this perception gap about the others. And the perception gap I'm referring to is the research out of More in Common. I'm not sure if you're familiar with that organization. I would certainly encourage people to look at More in Common has two really insightful reports. One is the Hidden Tribes report and this perception gap report that's been really informative for me in helping me draw on the data when I think about what's actually happening and how does that impact the work we're trying to do in civic education. If I would add to that is the majority of people in our exhausted, if you look at a Pew Research poll in 20 23, 60 5% of the people describe themselves as just exhausted. And exhaustion as we know, leads to apathy, disengagement, and that's a threat to our civic life. And then if I can, the second thing I was talking about is we're just more isolated and disconnected than ever before. I think we all saw the surgeon general's warning in 2023 that we have an epidemic of loneliness and isolation. Robert Putnam's book of 1995 predates the technology we're all living in and social media, his bowling alone book was prescient on this issue that we're not connected to each other and that isolation leads to dangerous outcomes. So that really has deleterious effects on our physical and mental health as Surgeon General would say, as well as undermining the social and civic health of our communities. And in my mind, civic education, civic engagement, civil discourse is the antidote to all of that. So that's the urgency I would have around that.

Beverly Leon: So I'm happy to build on what Peter shared here. And there are a couple things that Peter you're sharing that are resonating and I was just nodding my head. One of the first things that actually comes to mind for me around why civics education is important even more so today than ever before, is this sense of isolation and disconnection. Many of us are feeling adults are feeling, but particularly young people are feeling and they're not seeing great models of what feeling connected, authentically connected and rooted in community can mean what it does to an individual person to feel connected and be able to participate and contribute to their communities, to our states, to our country in that way, I think is one of the best spaces that a person can be in. And also creates a sense of possibility, opportunity, and creativity that powers much of the innovation we see in our society. So that's sort of that one piece of what does it mean when you feel connected, when you want to labor for your community, for your family, for your school, and you have that sense of civic pride. I think it is not quantifiable, right? There isn't a measure you can put on having that deep sense of belonging and connection to folks. The other piece is that isolation, driving this apathy and this disenchantment with many of the systems and civic infrastructure processes that we actually fought for that there was a whole revolutionary war for. And I think that sense of there's a sense of losing that history and understanding that we create the systems and we must also maintain and sustain them and that people do that right systems, people can both maintain and build them. And it's important to be a part of that. And I think that process is obscure by design, but helping civics education can actually unearth the ways that people can meaningfully and authentically engage with that system and support all the things they hold near and dear. So your family, your friends, the people you care about in your community, the people that have helped you grow into the person you are, it's a really powerful way to actually give back. But there's a distance between that system and the places and spaces that we love. And beyond that, when you actually look at some of the facts today, what that means in numbers when you have research come out, so whether it's Pew or the Annenberg Center, 25% of young people today believe that choosing leaders through free elections is unimportant. You have fewer than 30% of people under the age of 40 consider it essential to live in a democracy. And this is compared to my parents and grandparents' generation where it was 70% born after World War ii believe that to be true. And just from the civic knowledge standpoint, we've actually made some progress here in the past couple of years, but less than half of US adults. So 47% of US adults can name all three branches of our government, right? And you think about what those skills and that knowledge can drive and it supports, I believe it actually supports some of that apathy and isolation because of the misunderstanding, not because people do not actually care about the outcomes of that process.

Hayley Spira-Bauer: So a lot to chew on there, right? We are talking about why it's important now more than ever. And both of you have referenced quite a few important data points and research as well as trends that we've seen evolve over the past few decades that speaks to the situation that we all are experiencing now. I'm a big believer as a lifetime educator that education is the path to almost everything that what we do in our schools when children are young lays the foundation for the betterment of our world. I think you both believe that as well. So let's talk about now how schools can address civic engagement, civic education in meaningful ways that allow us to maybe counteract some of this information and this data that you're sharing here, Beverly, I know this is your life's work, so talk about how we can do that. Let's bring the scary parts and the deleterious data to life and talk about where are some solutions.

Beverly Leon: Yeah, happy to. And Peter used a really great term, he shared that civics education is also almost like this antidote to some of those really alarming facts and figures. But I think the hopeful part of me looks at those and says, these can change, people's minds can change. We can learn new skills and we can actually build towards a community that sustained and values has shared values across democracy community and what building that sense of belonging is. And I think it actually starts in our schools. It starts with educators who are already doing this work day in and day out. They're building connections and relationships with young people and their families. They're building relationships with communities and local businesses to actually bring this to life and help young people step into their adult journey. And I think that comes down to what we care about in communities there. Can I support my family? Will my kids be able to have the type of life I've been able to pursue? And so when I think about what role does school play in this, I think it's huge. And on the one hand it's building a robust set of skills and experiences that help students develop these civic mindsets, develop civic skills, and actually have the disposition and experience to practice that during their K through 12 education. And it's also in Peter, I would love to hear you think about how you structure that from the curriculum and instructional perspective at that district and school level. But there's also the piece around the school as some of the lifeblood of civic and community engagement where many people in the community interact with our schools, whether they're working there and they work there for years, they're attending it, they have family that attends it, they're young people are working at local businesses and they're also attending these schools. And so it's really this central hub that I think presents a huge opportunity for us to really work towards these skills and change these mindsets that not just young people have adults have about what's important and how we can build in our communities. One of the things I'll share as we see schools, a lot of our work at Local Civics focuses on project and inquiry-based learning. And we believe that young people should be interacting, engaging and connecting with real people that live in their community, live in their neighborhoods that attend their schools. And building the capacity inside schools to bring young people into those experiences, I think is a huge opportunity and also can be meaningfully connected to some of the critical skills that students are using in their science class, in their math classes, in English class. And so there's this opportunity to connect what young people really care about learning. Does this matter for my life to some of the systems and standards and goals and objectives that schools are working towards? Are young people prepared to enter the world? Do they have essential skills? Can they read? Are there numeracy and literacy skills robust? I'll pause there, but I think it's just a huge opportunity and schools are really the lifeblood of how we work against some of these alarming stats and real feelings and disaffection people are feeling.

Hayley Spira-Bauer: Peter, you took yourself off mute, so I'm guessing you want to respond there. And I know that this is something you're very passionate about.

Dr. Peter Tragos: Yes. Wow, Beverly, you really named so many important things about the role and function of schools, particularly public schools in a community. So thank you for naming that and seeing civic education. We're one mind on that. Civics is civic, education is a skill or a disposition, not a body of knowledge. It's those kinds of things. We can certainly talk more about that later when we get to perhaps some of our other questions. But the statistics you shared are startling. 25% of people do not believe that electing leaders through fair elections is appropriate or the fair way to go. Is that a good restatement of that Beverly?

Beverly Leon: Yes. And young people.

Dr. Peter Tragos: Young people, excuse me, one in four. And how frightening is that one in four, which just speaks to not necessarily a belief, but certainly it emanates from a value, right? And it tells me that 25% of the young people are not sharing a value that I think many people have taken at for granted or we've taken for granted that everybody assumes that free and fair elections is the way to do this. And that is something that perhaps when I started teaching, I certainly took for granted. Maybe I did just up until a few years ago. So just recognizing that. So thanks for sharing that and that I would say something very similar to what Beverly's talking about so that schools are the most ideal and important place to do this work. And really, if not in schools, where else is this happening? It's certainly, as we said, we have bad models of civic education. It's not happening in the public square, it's not happening in community because people are more isolated or disconnected from those communities. These are places we might have previously learned these kinds of skills or shared values with people in our community that we learn to know them as individuals, even if we don't see everything the same way. It's perfectly okay. We live in a pluralistic society. I'm not sure if some people believe, and maybe the statistics, Beverly, you shared point to the fact that maybe some people are not believing that a pluralistic society is in fact the health of our democracy and that is troublesome. So schools are the most ideal and important place to do that, particularly now as we're talking about it, people have taken up entrenched positions on nearly every issue. And so our classrooms really are the antidote. I use it again, I do think it is the antidote because we're actually challenging and fighting against something that is infectious and dangerous to our civic health. So the antidote to polarization.So if we're not going to have reason debate in classrooms, pursue truth, call out patently false ideas or narratives, then where else will it happen?So again, it's not happening, certainly not happening on social media. I think we can all agree to that it's not happening in the other places that we engage with people. So school really is the place to do that because civic education in schools, I'll repeat what Beverly said, I want to underscore because it's spot on, which is it has the power to give students the skills and the tools and the sense of agency that things can be better, can be different, and they possess the power to make it. And that is something, one is it's imbuing them with a sense of agency. I think that is critically important to challenge disenchantment, to challenge disaffection and antipathy and all of these things. So as we start to look at it that way, I would add to it one more thing. Again, it resonated with me what Beverly you were saying about the role of schools in a community. We have to see education as a public good that we all have something to contribute no matter where we are in the country. In working on developing citizens who have the skills and dispositions to thrive in a diverse democracy. Citizens who can think, who can argue fostering dialogue at the K-12, in the K-12 space and in schools is perhaps the best opportunity, if not the only opportunity that we have to do it. So

Hayley Spira-Bauer: We've talked a little bit here about social media. There's been a few references to social media. I can't imagine what it is like being a school leader for high school with social media present today. When I left middle school, when I was last in a middle school, there were some use of social media, but not the rapid proliferation of basically misinformation and skewed biased data sources. I mean, I read some statistic, I'm not going to quote it, you both probably could about what percentage of youth get their political information and news via TikTok and it was alarming. So I guess I'll start with you Peter. I'm going down the dark path again. Let's talk about what you see happening in nut nutri as it relates to social media use, but then let's also talk about how your district is addressing it as it relates to civic education.

Dr. Peter Tragos: Yeah, good question. I don't have all those statistics handy. I've seen it. I know we put a lot on young people, gen Z and social media. I don't want to exclude adults and middle aged folks like me from getting their news from social media. So sometimes happens with these kinds of things inside it's young people that are contributing to this. I think we all need to share the blame and the burden for what's happening in social media on this. I think we can all agree there's many good uses for technology, social media, social media for good. All of these kinds of things are true. And at the same time, it certainly is it social media fuels the engine of misinformation and disinformation and frankly it just narrows our field of vision on all of these things. So again, contributing even more to our isolation. So we see and hear what's most pleasing or affirming to us. It's confirmation bias times a hundred in all of this. I think about the role of social media and in propagating misinformation and disinformation similar to Mark Twain's old quip of a lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes and truth just doesn't have a chance. Now that quote, I don't know, it's got to be 120 years old, but it travels even faster than that today, right? So how do you possibly challenge and refute misinformation? It's very difficult and it's dangerous really more than anything in all of that. I haven't exactly answered your question about social media use and nutri. Sure I can. I don't want to make some generalized observations about it. I think what I would share is I think what we're all hearing and reading about is the impact of social media on young people today on mental health. I think again, I want to broaden that. I think it's impacting all people of all ages in that, and I would share with you that a couple things do come to mind and I have heard, we've heard teachers report this here at New Trier. It's also part of what I think is reported in seen in some national media as well. It is tending to have a stifling effect on students in the classroom that students are afraid of being canceled or called out on social media for saying the wrong thing, for doing the wrong thing. And that research is out there about students self-centering both at the college level and the high school level as well. And it's a challenge that students are more than anything are afraid to be wrong. Whereas I'm not sure that was necessarily true because we didn't have the outlets for the public Appium, the calling out on social media of somebody. Something said it in class perhaps I think this phenomena is captured in this poignant opinion piece in the LA Times last December by an 11th grade student in an article, maybe you're familiar with it. It was called Listen Up. The Closing of the Teenage Mind is almost complete, is a fascinating look into a classroom through an 11th grader's eyes in his experience and his description in classrooms gave me pause about what it's like leading a discussion today and really the insight on self-censorship for this fear of a program calling out or being canceled. I shared it with a few teachers who lead our professional learning collaboratives in civil discourse. I shared it with our department leaders in English and social studies as well because this is where many of the conversations are happening. Fascinating. They use it with their teachers and others. Some teachers actually use it with their students to say, does this resonate? Are you seeing yourself in this? Do our classrooms feel like this? And it was mixed responses, certainly some nods I heard and that it was different. I would say one of the things we're trying to do is build environments where civil discourse and inquiry can thrive. And that starts with relationships. You have to have these positive relationships, have to assume that students have multiple perspectives and not fully formed opinions in doing these things. So that's true in that way. So we're trying to create these environments where these kinds of things can thrive and approaching it with a set of skills and dispositions that that's how we approach these things. And that comes with developing media literacy, practicing the skills of inquiry, practicing the skills of discernment, practicing the skills of critical thinking to do all of these things in the skills-based curriculum and disposition. So that's what we're working on right now and hopefully trying to reverse that trend and making students just aware of it and making adults aware of it. So I'll pause there. That was maybe too much on that, but Beverly probably has a lot to say on it.

Beverly Leon: Peter appreciated how broadened it. I think this is a piece where we all can see and sense this technology and social media burnout. We may hopefully adults actually have some better skills, right? Emotional regulation skills. Our brains are fully developed. We actually have routines that may actually help us step away from some of these technologies, these news stories. Many people don't. And we see the impact of that. So when I think about young people where the most important information that they get actually comes through their cell phone that sits by them. And whether that's a distraction at times or it can be like they're a lifesaver at times because they get really critical information and can connect with people. It's hard to separate when it's something that is harming you in your mental health. And when it's something that's actually adding a benefit. And that's just on technology in general, right? It can aid and then also hamstring us in many ways that we may not even recognize. So really appreciate that it's broadened. I think the other piece, Peter, you named was that news travel so quickly today. And there's a beautiful thing about that where previously you had to wait to see what the major news outlets published in at 6:00 AM the next morning to actually understand what's happening around the world. And the unintended consequence of that is now that you go to sleep knowing what is happening all around the world or in your community or in your state or something that you are deeply connected to and that can perhaps weigh on us more so than we had 10 hours in between learning that news or we were seeing it pushed through our algorithm day in and day out and it was coming into our friend groups and sort of shaping how we actually perceive our day-to-day life. And I think that's a weight and burden that young people feel because they do have this deep sense of empathy and connection and curiosity about the world. But I'm not quite sure how we address without trying to limit how much you, you're sort of engaged with that social media, that black mirror that we look at every single day and that all that information comes through. So that's just on technology I think is we have a lot of questions as a society to answer around its use and role and utility for what living a good life means. I think the other piece that it presents is the role of media literacy skills, critical thinking skills, perspective taking skills, all skills that schools have traditionally taught through our history courses, through English, through logic debate and mathematics courses. You now need to not only acquire and get exposure to those skills, but you need to apply them every single day to understand and evaluate how to receive new information that you're receiving on TikTok, on Twitter, in Instagram, and then in your classroom. So I think there's a piece where the skillset that young people need to navigate technology is actually needs to be at a higher level than perhaps we needed when we were learning these same skills in school. And one of the things I think about is that role of schools, the role of educators in facilitating these spaces of inquiry for students to practice this where it's lower stakes, where this isn't going to 1000 or 10,000 people or you're not going to be in front of a million people on social media saying, I cannot believe that this person, this young person believes this. The only way you can really have your beliefs impacted, changed and be persuasive is to actually put your ideas into a public forum. And those forums used to be our classrooms and trusted spaces and people you saw every single day that weren't going to cast you aside if you happened to have a belief that wasn't shared amongst the class or you could engage with it. And I think that's one of the pieces that we're missing in these inquiry conversations, in these media literacy conversations and that fear, call it cancel culture, self-censorship. It gets heightened when the number of people that actually are engaging with your thoughts are beyond the people that you'll ever actually meet in your life. So I think that's a challenge of social media. But the other flip side is social media also introduces all these new sources that students get to practice these skills on. You do need the skill and expertise of educators or your peers to help guide you, but we've now introduced a bunch of new primary and secondary sources into students' everyday life that if they have not mastered that skill of analyzing audience tone, goal of a source, they won't be able to ask the right questions about the validity of that source. And then once they've been outraged for 30 seconds about a story, say, let me pause for a second, what else do I want to know about this? Instead of hitting share to sort of perpetuate that sort of viral moment. I think that's hard. And the hardest part of that is it takes time. You need time to actually reflect, get feedback, and of course that time takes a lot longer than spending two seconds to hit share and blast it out to another thousand, 2000 people in your network.

Hayley Spira-Bauer: So wildly, this is so relevant to my final question, which it boggles my mind that we are actually at this point of the conversation, but what advice would you give, and I'm going to ask it differently for either of you because your purviews are somewhat different. I'm going to ask Beverly, what advice would you give advice a teacher starting their career today who wants to ensure they are really preparing their students to become civically engaged?

Beverly Leon: This is such a great question. I think for any educator that wants to prepare their students and support them in this journey, and also this educator is likely on this journey to their own sense of civic engagement and involvement is to put students in the driver's seat. There are a lot of what I would call it's a minefield for educators and schools to navigate some of the political sensitivities and political discourse that is most of the time not civil, that is targeted, that is part of that polarization. I think it can present, it becomes easier to not engage than to actually meet it head on as an educator and say, how do you approach this? And I think one of the best ways to approach it is toput students in the driver's seat and actually remove yourself, your beliefs, your biases.We all come with biases and stories and your job isn't to bring those to students. Your job is to facilitate conversation and ideas exchange from students while guiding those skills, that skill acquisition that takes expertise, right? And so I think about as a new educator, I also think it lowers some of that stress, that anxiety they may feel to say, how do I talk about the election? Because we may be actually engaged in the election in our communities, in our families, in our own civic engagement in a way that is different from young people and should be different. So how do you square that sort of personal from the professional? And I think the best way to do that is to just have students engage with these. The other piece that I'll plug in we think is critical is have students look locally. Civics is all around them. We may use terms around civics and civics, education and inquiry-based learning that actually are just different words for what's important to you and your community. Where do your family, how do they spend their free time? Where do your parents work? What do you hope for? What vision do you have for your community, for our society that perhaps no one's asked them. And I think that's an amazing way to make school relevant for students, particularly if you're a new teacher and you're trying to learn how to step into the profession, but also for students to say, oh wow, school actually is touching on the things that matter to me most. Wait, this is school? I thought it looked different. And so looking locally, bringing students into places that they engage and interact with and having them apply the skillset in that way and have them answer, asking and answering the questions that we all actually are trying to solve and people's whole careers are dedicated to building. And then if I could have two other, I'll share two other things just for teachers is there's a misconception about civics. One is the breadth and its expansiveness of civics. It's not just the three branches of government, it's how that also impacts our daily life and how we navigate and understand the communities we're a part of and how we seek to change them. The other is that it's zero sum, that if one party or group is actually winning, that another has to lose. And I think that is a huge constraint and young people are far better than adults thinking creatively expansively, not censoring big ideas and opportunities for change than any of us are because we've already censored down, I can't share this great idea because everyone will say, well how's that going to work? And our young people actually are in the best position to come with fresh perspectives and ideas and probably some endurance and stamina that we may lack in our lives now. So yeah, that's what I'd chair for a new teacher and it will support young people and really counteract a lot of those alarming and statistics we talked about. It comes with putting students in the driver's seat.

Hayley Spira-Bauer: Beautiful. That was really beautiful. Beverly, I feel like you were both philosophical and concrete there, which always helps with listenership. Trying, trying. Alright, Peter, same question with a slight tweet. You're obviously supporting a lot of leaders in your role. So what advice would you give leaders who are starting their career in leadership who care a lot about their students being civically engaged?

Dr. Peter Tragos: Great question and variation on that and just want to acknowledge, Beverly, that was really beautiful. I think you named what we're working on and the hope and aspiration of what schools can do and what they can be for students. And certainly placing students in the driver's seat, talking about student agency, you can't talk about citizenship or engaging students if they're not active agents in their learning. So I mean that really is the crux of all of this in this way. So the advice I would give to leaders doing this work around civic engagement, I think it would be a couple of things. One is tosee and think about civic education as a verb.Think about civic education as something students do, a set of skills that emanate from a set of shared values and learning by doing. And that what leaders do, and I would recommend is really for their institution, their school, their institution, their district is to ensure that they gather stakeholders, including students, to have a set of shared values around what it is we're talking about in education. Before we can talk about what we teach, how we teach it, how we're going to measure it, what kids are going to do. We have to work from first to set of shared values. And that's a leader's role is to define those shared values for their institution, their community, their district in all of that. With that, I think it's important then to affirm and communicate the values around civic education, develop a vision. I would say develop a statement, a mission statement. I think we'll find more agreement probably than disagreement when we talk about values at that high level, a statement of principle and why. And just, I don't want to take us too far off track. It's something that we adopted in 2020, New Trier Civil discourse and critical thinking statement. Hayley, you and I have talked about that a bit, but I'll leave that aside, maybe another conversation, Beverly, I'd love to tell you more about it. But again, communicate what those values are and then align to that. So the other piece of advice I think I would give then is to also frame civics and civil discourse as a future ready skill. We can start to look at portraits of a graduate that districts have, and they include 21st century skills and success skills that we know are important. Collaboration, communication, critical thinking, creativity. You'll not find many portraits of a graduate or large outcomes like that that actually include either civil discourse explicitly or citizenship explicitly. We have to start thinking about it as a 21st century skill, future ready skill, call it what you will and explicitly name it. That's something that we are striving for teaching towards and measuring progress towards. And I think that would be a real key for all of that. And then the other piece I would say for leaders is ensure that it's real. And Beverly, you touched on this too, is that civics education is happening in real time, in real context, in the real world that students spend some time in classrooms, but not all the time in classrooms. The majority of time should actually be spent engaged in real world problem project-based learning or problem-based learning so they can practice the skills of citizenship that we're starting to do that. So I think all of those things from a leader's perspective are important to develop a civics education program in a school or within a district. And then lastly and key to all of this is partner with organizations like Beverly's, local Civics, and there are organizations, Beverly, you're doing amazing work in this civic repair space. Schools can't do it alone. We've already talked about that. Civics is about engagement. It's about doing it in community with people. So no one school can and should think they're doing it alone. The work you could do in developing teachers, connecting community and career learning to what's happening in civics. So really do the work you're doing and find these organizations. And Local Civics is certainly one of them. That is a partnership, that is an expression of community engagement. It's what schools can and should do. So those are my recommendations.

Hayley Spira-Bauer: My favorite kind of podcast is when the people have such profound respect for one another and the work that they're doing that it just feels so natural to be like, yeah, follow this person, do this work. Because my goal here with Learning Can't Wait podcast is to amplify the work and the voices of people who care deeply about children. And the two of you exemplify that. So I have to say, Peter and Beverly, this has been incredible. Thank you so much for coming on today and sharing your wisdom, expertise, and vision with our audience.

Beverly Leon: Thanks so much for having me and Peter, wonderful speaking and listening and just learning from you. And I can't wait to see how you're bringing this to life. And also really excited that you have a statement and actual school value and mission around civic discourse and civil discourse for students. Even that is something that a lot of folks don't think to even set down to make progress towards it. So Hayley, thank you for the invitation and privilege. Of course.

Dr. Peter Tragos: Likewise, Hayley, thanks for inviting me on the podcast. And moreover, thanks for connecting me with Beverly. You really are a connector. You know how to put people together. So I appreciate being here. I've learned a lot from Beverly and look forward to continuing the conversation. I think there's more to be talked about and said here, Beverly. So look forward to that. Hayley, thanks again. It's terrific.

Hayley Spira-Bauer: Yeah, of course. And thank you to everybody who tuned in today.